Friday, December 4, 2009

Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semetic?

So, at Carleton last term, there was a discussion facilitated by peer educators from the Office of Intercultural Life. The discussion was called "Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semetic?" and it was a very, very heated night. The two things that struck me at the time were:

1. White men (regardless of heritage) felt as though they could speak for other people, groups as large as "the Jewish people," even. They did not feel the need to speak from their own experience.
2. People really like dichotomies, like "Jews/Palestinians" and "those who want violence/those who want peace."

Now, both of these things really bothered me at the time. I really, really strongly dislike when people speak for other people. Unless others have asked me what I think, they can't speak for me. Period. So unless the person speaking had gone around and asked every single Jewish person on the planet, I do not feel they can speak for "the Jewish people." And even if they had done that, people are dynamic and change; what they thought at one time could be completely different from what they think now. So really, I prefer to speak from my own experience or directly cite the people I hope to be allies with.

Furthermore, I think dichotomies are generally false. I believe that there is a greater diversity within groups than between them (this is what I was once told in a training manual). In a situation like the Israel/Palestine "conflict" (read: genocide) there is a wide array of voices saying distinct things. And "those who want violence/those who want peace"? Really? I won't go there, because I don't even know what that means.

So while the conversation definitely sparked thoughts in my head, I left feeling like I hadn't really learned much about the "conflict" itself. And I won't pretend I'm an expert, because I certainly am not. What I remember very vividly, however, was one particular part of the discussion. During this part, Israel had been defined as a political state, and one of the people participating in the discussion referenced religion. One facilitator immediately stepped in and informed speaker that this was not a discussion about religion. The other facilitator stopped them and said something like, "No, we can go there. Let's go there."

This was a bad. Call. And made the other facilitator quite angry. And I didn't understand why until I read this. One of the articles in it is called "The Forgotten '-ism'" and it talks about Zionism.

In the article, written by three Arab-American women, they begin by defining Zionism.

We define Zionism as a settler-colonial political movement that seeks to ethnically cleanse historical Palestine of the indigenous population and populate it as a Jewish-only state. [...] Among the claims that underlie hegemonic Zionism is that Jews have the right to possess al of the land between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers. (99)

They talk a little more about Zionism and they think it's a not-such-a-good-thing.

This Zionist narrative is given credibility through the biblical notion that the Jewish people are entitled to the land because it was given to them by God. The Zionist movement has not only supported the creation of that state of Israel on Palestinian land, but has supported the creation of a Jewish-only state in that historically diverse land. Within this paradigm, Zionism constructs Jews as a race (or distinct ethnic group) and the state of Israel as a Jewish-only state, with non-Jews considered a "demographic threat." This exclusionary logic has produced the conditions for torture, home demolitions, restriction of movement, unemployment, poverty, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. Any state that officially and legally privileges members of one "race" or "ethnicity" over another, and establishes national identity on the basis of race or ethnicity, is inherently racist. Therefore, Israel is a racist state that is founded upon a racist ideology that protects and preserves the rights of Jews only. That racist ideology is Zionism. (99)

But just to make things very clear, Zionism is not the product of religious thought.

Zionism was born through the writings of Theodore Herzl in Germany in the late 1880s. As outlined by Herzl, Zionism was to be a secular political project that defined "the Jews" as a people, a nation, and a race, rather than as a religious group. In the context of the fervent European anti-Jewish discrimination of the time, Herzl argued for the need to create an independent Jewish state for "the Jewish people" who, he argued, could never possibly assimilate in the countries they inhabited. Although multiple locations were suggested, the Zionist movement proposed Palestine as a site for a Jewish state, in a strategic move that would allow them to use the religious history of Palestine to justify their political goal of colonization. At every point of its genesis, the Zionist movement was informed and reinforced by nineteenth-century European colonialism and its white supremacist ideology.

Israel was not constructed to colonize the natives, per se, but to remove them entirely from their lands and to construct Israeli Jews as the authentic people of the land. (100)

So it was only after reading this that a little light bulb went off in my head. Of course! Religion has no part in this discussion because this is not a conversation about religion, but a conversation about colonialism and white supremacy.

And if you don't believe me, and even if you don't believe the women who directly wrote the article, I present quotes from Herzl himself:

From his diary: "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country...expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

And another one, Herzl claims that the Zionism project's goal is "To go further than any colonialist has gone in Africa ... where involuntary expropriation of land will temporarily alienate civilized opinion. By the time the reshaping of world opinion in our favor has been completed, we shall be firmly established in our country, no longer fearing the influx of foreigners, and receiving our visitors with aristocratic benevolence." (Both quotes from page 101)

The article goes on to talk about the ADL, how it claims that "Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism" and the ways in which Zionist leaders have infiltrated the US government, higher education, political organizations, and industries. But I won't talk about that, I want to keep the focus local.

To talk a little more about racism and white supremacy, I think this notion of Zionism is largely absent from what I've seen at Carleton. I had a friend tell me that in conversations people actually ask her if there are "black Jews." In the world. And I'm pretty sure I've heard people assert that there aren't or be surprised when they hear that there are. And I don't know much about the JSC (Jewish Students of Carleton) but I remember having a conversation with people about how white the JSC is. And possibly even a conversation about how their services don't support all sects of Judaism. What I do know is: they party a lot. And I'm positive there is at least one strong Zionism supporters who is a faculty member at Carleton.

77 comments:

  1. Nice post. I really wanted to go to that discussion. This is an issue that has been discussed by my friends, jewish and not, quite a bit, and the consensus has generally been, "anti-semetism is obviously awful, and anti-zionism is pretty similar to an opposition to any political movement: anti-liberal, anti-authoritarian etc. It has nothing to do with Judaism, and these two "anti-ism's" are VERY different. "
    What I've observed in these discussions is that initially my Jewish friends (and sadly myself on occasion) go into super-defense-mode, fearing that an attack on zionism is a Slippery Slope to anti-semetism, even if the two are far from the same thing. I don't think anyone is in a position to claim this as fact, but it does make some of the defensiveness slightly more understandable.

    Also, I'm Jewish and the JSC does not serve my religious needs :P. Just cuz you mentioned that, I thought I'd throw it out there.

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  2. Hey hey hey,

    I just discovered your blog. I like a lot of what I'm reading so far.

    About the JSC stuff here. I think you brought up some interesting things to think about. There seems to be just a general problem with offices working together at Carleton. But people definitely feel the same way about the GSC being white, from my experience (and Carleton in general). So maybe we all need to start making a bigger effort to communicate. I'm definitely part of the problem when it comes to this. We always talk about working across offices but then the work at Carleton and personal stuff gets in the way. This is maybe a group we should make more of an effort to work with.

    One thing. I'm a little uncomfortable with "they party a lot". There are a lot of parties at Reynold's. This I know. But I also know as someone on Budget Committee that the JSC is a group we see frequently. They often come to us to do things for holidays and other events. I felt like this comment was more directed at Reynold's house and not the JSC. I would be careful about making this distinction. While I have no experience with how well the JSC represents different jewish faiths, I do not that they appear to be hosting a a plethora of events on the campus.

    Anyway. Keep the blog posts coming. I'm really enjoying it!

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  3. Laura,
    I'm trying to write this calmly and rationally, recognizing my clear biases as related the topic of this post.
    But, I think you're jumping to some serious conclusions in this post and that you're, frankly, being incredibly offensive. First, I would be very very careful about making statements about Israel or Zionism without studying them. I've studied in Israel (classes led by Israelis, Palestinians, and expats, mind you) and I'm in the course going to Israel in two days and I still would not call myself confident in making statements half as strong as yours on the subject. It is so much more complicated than I'm guessing you or I will ever understand.
    I guess I'll try to make a few points that I think are the most crucial:
    1. Your statement about the guy who attempted to speak for "all Jews"- in a lot of ways, that's how I, at least, have been taught, especially in issues that relate to my religion or Israel. The fact is that whether or not it is a reality in the US today, many Jewish organizations and educational programs keep the mindset that the Jews as a people have something to defend, part of it is a retold history of persecution since the fall of the first temple, a lot of it is the horror of the holocaust and the anti-semitism that led to it and continues after it, and in more recent times, a lot of it is because of Israel. Though I agree with you that many groups are more divided within them than outside them, and the Jewish people are no exception, the mindset I was raised with was 'the moment you show weakness is the moment you'll get attacked and everything that's been built up to support you will crumble'- is that right? I'm not sure, but I am sure it's a psychological coping mechanism, and as someone not a part of this group, I'm not sure you're so qualified to critique it.

    2. When I went to Israel I was hoping to find out that my love of religion and my passion for showing people how similar Judaism and Islam are could prove useful in conflict resolution. What I learned was religion really was not a part of the conflict, and, I felt, not really a part of the resolution either. However, in the course I took this fall "The State of Judaism in Israel", I realized, again, how integral religion is. Because the truth is that Judaism for many many Jews IS an ethnicity. The texts, the history, how we have lived as a people in ancient times and through the diaspora, has formed a group identity that goes beyond the torah, beyond even the belief in God. This is what makes everything so complicated. You can't take religion out of the conflict in Israel because it is the state for the Jewish people- a PEOPLE who vary completely in religious practice and political views but still identify as a group.

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  4. (continuing because it was too long for one post)

    3. I cannot help but think that you are being a bit of a hypocrite here. You are always one to speak of priviledge, racism, inappropriate use of language, etc, and yet, all this post does is reflect your own priviledge. I do not know your ancestral background, or the challenges you or your family have faced because of their religious belief. But I know my heritage and that of many of the kids I grew up with is one where many of our grandparents and great grandparents were persecuted, isolated from the rest of the population, murdered, or, if they were lucky, allowed to bribe themselves out of certain death and escape to more welcoming lands. I don't think you have often heard statements that denied your family's past or claimed that they deserved what they got. The issue of Israel gets touchy because it often gets boiled down to its "right to exist", which, for the right or wrong reasons turns into the "right of the Jewish people to exist". There are those in the past who thought the Jewish people had no right to exist and there are people today who think the land 'assigned' to them has no right to exist either. Until you've experienced part of the pain that comes from any of that, it's really easy for you to make statements like "the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (read= genocide)".

    I make no claims to support every decision of the Israeli government, but I do support the right of Israel to exist. I also support the right of the Palestinian people to exist and I hope and pray for a resolution that is livable, if not completely optimal.

    I'd love to talk to you about this more in person.
    ~Abby

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  5. Abby,

    I'm really glad you're speaking your mind on this issue. I realize that you feel this topic is incredibly personal for you and bears intense emotional weight; I do not want to undermine that.

    I would be curious to hear more about what you find so offensive about this post. What I'm hearing is that I can't possibly know enough to comment on the subject. I'm also hearing that, because I am not marginalized because of my religious beliefs (and I would debate this in a Christian society), because I am not part of this "out-group" I am unqualified to have an opinion and criticize the Israeli government. Furthermore you feel I am being hypocritical because I speak about privilege a lot, and yet am being uncritical of my privilege in this situation.

    I respectfully disagree with each of these claims. I was sharing the perspective of Arab-Americans, who are discriminated against both in Palestine and the United States because of their race. Furthermore, I was sharing a history of Zionism, one which explains that the movement behind creating the state of Israel was founded in the idea of genocide and displacement of native people. The argument that I am then sharing based on this reality is that the way the acts the Israeli government commit are racist against Palestinians. I made no statements about Judaism or the right of Jewish people to exist. I wholly support the existence of all types of people with all types of religious beliefs. And I will, once more, point out that the construction of the Jewish people as a race is part of this racist Zionist doctrine that is being used to violently uproot and destroy Palestinian people.

    It seems to me like you have internalized a lot of Zionist thought, and I recognize that is part of who you are. And I like you and I hope you will be able to see that what I think arises from my experiences and who I am. We all have biases. I will not pretend I am an expert, as I said earlier in my post.

    Lastly, I would like to take your argument about being an "outsider" and unpack it. People say things about LGBTQ people all of the time. I have heard straight people tell me that I should want gay marriage because it is good for gay people. I am queer and do not agree with this. But I still people can have opinions. People can and do make statements about other people all of the time, whether they are qualified or not. So it is a privileged thing to say any time anyone tells someone what they can or cannot comment on.

    I would hope that grounding my post in an academic anthology chronicling the violence against women and seeking to re-center Palestinian women in a conflict that seeks to erase their voice, would not be me speaking from my privilege.

    You should totally call me! Because the internet can get messy.

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  6. So I'm Jewish and I was at the Chili Night discussion and felt incredibly frustrated that invidividuals were literally speaking for me, saying what ALL Jews wanted or what ALL people who support the existence of Israel wanted. Not only did I not always agree with what they were saying, it made me feel like I had no voice and that all the thought and reflection I have done on myself as a Jewish person and the Israel/Palestine conflict meant nothing since I was just going to be lumped into a group anyway and have other people's ideas projected onto me.

    I certainly understand the richness and importantance of Jewish history, traditions, and culture. Since I don't consider myself religious or god-believing, those are the aspects of Judaism that are most important to me. However, I don't feel like this constitutes a separate race(or as the excerpt says "a distinct ethnic group"). I think it's right that the idea of Jewish as an a race was pushed by Zionists, but I think (and this may be incorrect) that a lot of this idea seems to come from anti-semetism. In particular I am thinking about how Jews, and others, were considered by the Nazis to be inferior races. Anyway, I think Jews can still own and honor our heritage without Jewish needing to be a race or distinct ethnic group.

    Finally, I think that all people, Jewish or not, can have an opinion on this subject as long as everyone tries to be aware of their privileges. I think we should also all be sensitive to how issues bear different weights to different people. However, the bottom line in my opinion is that we can criticize the actions of the state of Israel, believe the experiences of Palestinians and demand their rights while not being Anti-semetic and affirming the reality of the Holocaust.

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  7. I saw this post last night and was rather frustrated by what I read. I had hoped that by ignoring it, that it would go away, but such is not the case. Quite honestly I do not feel like I can speak to a majority of the article, but I found the last paragraph rather troubling. You claimed you did not know very much about the JSC other than the fact that they seemed "white" and that they partied a lot. As Stephen mentioned before, Reynolds=/=the JSC much like Q&A=/=the GSC. I feel like you would not make such snarky comments about the BSA or LASO (in reference to black house or casa parties), but somehow you felt it was okay to attack the JSC(a group that you admittedly know very little about). Furthermore the hypocrisy of calling the JSC white is just too much for me. As someone who works at the GSC you cannot tell me you are not aware that none of your coworkers are of color (and it would not surprise me if no people of color applied to work there as I know many who do not feel comfortable going to the GSC). And as far as the JSC's whiteness is concerned there is actually a member who comes from Bolivia, and she has been incredible at getting LASO and the JSC to work together on events.
    As I mentioned I am not responding to the chili night discussion (I was not there), I am simply responding to the comments you made about the JSC. And while you may not have said them with an intent to be offensive, I found them offensive and unnecessary.
    I apologize if this seemed rather strongly worded, but I found a lot of problems with the party comment as well as the white comment.

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  8. Once again, I can only speak from my experience, the conversations I've had with people, and the things I have read.

    I'm sorry you're upset and offended and feel like I'm being hypocritical. I make no claims about the GSC not being white. The GSC is white, both in staff members and in politics. I don't think that a person from Bolivia changes the entire dynamic of the JSC, I believe that's called tokenizing. Working with LASO would, and as previously stated I didn't know that was going on, and now I do. I have previously admitted I am not entirely aware of the workings of what they do.

    I also don't feel I've equated Reynolds with the JSC. I made no statements about Reynolds and what I have heard is that the JSC e-mail list sends out party invites. Are either you or Stephen on the JSC e-mail list? If so, have you found this to be the case? Because I heard this from people who are and made that assertion. I by no means want to undermine that the JSC does (a lot) of religious events at Carleton. But what I have also heard is that these events are limited in the scope of the religious sects that they cater to. So, once again, I am only going off of what I hear.

    I furthermore don't think it's hypocritical to criticize something for being white so long as I am aware that I am white. In all honesty, can we please leave the GSC out of this? Because I am and would like to be more than a GSCA.

    So I am sorry you are angry and upset. But really? Hypocrisy is talking about issues that matter as a white person? I'm attacking them by sharing the little information I've gathered about them? Check yourself, for real. I would like to learn more about the JSC, not be angrily and violently smacked down for not knowing things.

    And from what I know about CASA it parties a lot too. So I did say it, am I slipping further down the rabbit hole?

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  9. "The proliferation of Zionist ideology impacts persons from every racial and ethnic community in the United States, particularly those who are perceived to be potential allies to the Palestinian struggle for national liberation and self-determination. Yet, as long as progressive movements continue to omit a social justice stance on this issue, Zionism will remain the 'Forgotten -ism,' an unquestioned, unchallenged rationalization for colonialism, imperialism, racism, and sexism." (103)

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  10. I'm sorry for assuming that you were equating the JSC with Reynold's. When I read the comment "they party a lot" I assumed it was in reference to what you were seeing not what you had heard from people on the mailing list.

    What I disliked about the comment was that from the context it sounded incredibly dismissive of the group as a whole and I disagreed with what it is implicitly implying. This may not have been what you wanted but when I read that I see "The JSC is not working hard enough on being more inclusive to all Jewish faiths or be inclusive of people who are not white, because it spends all of its time partying". I dislike this tone because you yourself say you know little about the group. I have no idea how much time it spends planning events, how much is spent on parties, how much they even think about these issues. Nor do I know if it's difficult to get involved, if it is intentionally not open to other forms of Jewish expression or if it isn't something talked about enough and if I were to go and bring up these issues if they would discuss it with me and genuinely seek to correct this. I would want to know these things before I dismissed the group for hosting parties.

    I will say I think parties are a valid form of event planning for a group that is in part social. One of the largest complaints at the Rianbow Retreat is that it doesn't feel like a "community" at Carleton. And while parties are not the only, should not be the only, and may not be the best form of a community building, they play a part in making that community visible to the people within the community and without. While I'm not sure I jive with the experience at or the underlying motives for the COME parties this term, I will say I enjoyed seeing that they were happening and there was a genuine interest in including St. Olaf and many people from the "queer community" at them so that there might actually be a queer community.

    I just wanted to end by saying, I know this post is about much much more than the JSC. That it is about things much bigger and greater than the JSC at Carleton. But it seems like there are a fair bit of Carleton students reading this and I didn't want albeit a small part about Carleton to go unnoticed or uncommented.

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  11. I think I'm going to disagree with the Bolivian JSC member being a token. I take back the Reynolds comments because I was under the impression that you were confusing the house with the group.
    And I do think its hypocritical for calling out a group for being white but not looking to a group you work for and seeing how you can change the dynamic at the GSC to make it more inviting to people of color. And I'm sorry, but I don't think I can ignore the GSC connection as it is one that we both can discuss. And as I said I was calling you a hypocrite for the comments on the JSC not the comments on zionism and anti-semitism. And if you don't see how you are attacking them by calling them "white" and saying they party a lot, then clearly you need to check yourself. And if you want to learn more about the JSC maybe you should talk to some of the members rather than make off handed remarks about them.

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  12. I'd just like to add that I've read the rest of your blog and generally I agree with you have to say. I don't want you to think that my attacks are an attack on you. I think you have done a good job for the most part, and I have found myself nodding my head to most of your points rather than getting upset. Keep up the good work.
    p.s. I think any discussion of Carleton or groups at Carleton will bring out strong emotions in other Carleton students.

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  13. To Stephen: I am sorry for the effects of my words. They were not written with the intent to imply anything. I have addressed this in other posts (see the comments) so I will direct you there to see that. I stated that I see the perspective presented in The Color of Violence by Arab-American women is largely absent from what I have heard and seen the JSC doing at Carleton. Perhaps I could have done so more clearly.

    To Manny: I think we are going to disagree on this. I HAVE spoken to members of the JSC and it is their information that has led me to the things I wrote about in my post. The comments on this post have re-centered everyone except the Arab-American women and their perspective(s) on Zionism and Anti-Semetism, which was the point of this post. I believe that this viewpoint is largely ignored or not present at Carleton, and especially so in the JSC.

    And I already have checked myself, many times, and bemoaned how white the GSC staff is. I don't agree with a lot of what the GSC does and I will direct you to my Carletonian article (http://apps.carleton.edu/carletonian/?story_id=586815&issue_id=586665&section_id=344001) when I say that.

    And according to people who were intimately involved with the JSC last year, they are white, so once again I do not feel that as a white person I cannot comment on the whiteness of other groups.

    I would also like to point out that I am using whiteness as a dominant ideology in addition to as a skin color. I by no means want to dismiss or deny that I have the privilege of white skin, nor that I have not undoubtedly internalized a lot of the dominant ideology that is whiteness.

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  14. As a female, secular Jewish student at Carleton who is not very involved with the JSC, I'd just like to point something out that hasn't been discussed here – for a lot of Jews that I know, support of Israel's existence is distinct from support of Israel's policies or "Zionism" per se. The idea is that if Jews did not have a country of their own, they would have to remain dispersed in Christian-dominated states and continue to be vulnerable to anti-Semitic state policies and random acts of violence like pogroms, which had been the case pretty much incessantly for the hundreds of years before the foundation of Israel. Thus the issue of Israel's existence is looked at literally as a matter of life and death. Perhaps in the present day, the lives of Jews in Europe would not be in danger, but at the time when Israel was founded they obviously were. So many Jews denounce Zionist policies while supporting the existence of a Jewish state, not for white-supremacist, "purity" reasons, but for reasons of the protection of (what is left of) the Jewish population. (Of course, I don't know how legitimate that is when Iran is literally threatening to blow Israel off the map, but still...)

    Also, the JSC does party a lot, there's no denying that, but that seems to be organized by one group of friends within the group. And I'm curious: are there a lot of black Jews, or Jews of color, at Carleton who feel that they are excluded by the JSC? I have a friend who's an officer in the JSC who I'm sure would be interested to hear about that and try to change it for the better if it is the case.

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  15. And by "hundreds" of years, I mean thousands. Heh.

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  16. Laura,
    As a Jew, an active member of the JSC, a Carleton student, a white person, and a resident of Reynolds house this post offended me. I will be writing a more thoguhtful response later, when I have time. I just wanted to put this out there

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  17. To respond to "Anonymous", I would also be curious how many "Jews of color" there really are at Carleton and, at that, how many of them feel excluded from the JSC community because of their race.

    Laura,

    I think it is unfair to assert that based on the fact that the JSC is predominantly white, that it is white supremist. I also don't think that you can say that because people don't know there are black Jews or are suprised when they find out that there are, that this indicates the presence of a white supremist attitude in the JSC. Many Jews truly aren't aware of the existance of black Jews because they have never been exposed to them, indicating ignorance, not white supremacy/ racism.

    Speaking for myself, I am involved in the JSC and grew up in a suburban town in California and at my entire synagogue of 300 families, there was one black man. This did not have to do with a white supremist attitude at the synagogue, but was solely relient upon the ethnic make-up of the community. I feel that this is more the case at Carleton than white supremism, but do not claim to know the ethnic Jewish make-up of our school.

    I would just be careful when jumping to conclusions based on hear-say.

    What do you think?

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  18. Go down Moses
    'way from Egypt's land
    Tell all the Pharoahs
    To let me people go.

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  19. Laura,
    Why did you delete my comment?

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  20. Jonathan,

    I felt your comment contributed nothing substantial to our conversation, as you did not appear to read the words I put on the screen or comment on them. Your words appeared hateful in your most shining moments and I felt derailed the conversation from a conciliatory place. In short, I think you are a troll.

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  21. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  22. Laura, I have a number of disagreements with your post, with your characterizations of both Israel and the JSC, and I would like to point out a few of the areas in which I think you are mistaken.
    1) My first quarrel with you is your statement about white men in the second paragraph: “White men (regardless of heritage) felt as though they could speak for other people, groups as large as "the Jewish people," even. They did not feel the need to speak from their own experience.” How ironic that, in a post trumpeting the value of individual perspectives and scorning the possibility of drawing generalized conclusions about any group, that you should open by doing just that. As a white male, I do not appreciate you characterizing me in such a manner, and think that such clearly hypocritical language only weakens your arguments.
    2) Your attacks on the JSC as a white organization also deeply unfair and seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding of both the organization and the demographics of American Judaism. Yes, JSC is mostly white. But the JSC certainly does not seek to exclude members of any race; the fact is, both Carleton and the American Jewish community are majority white, and so that is naturally reflected in our membership. But this does not mean that we are some sort of chauvinistic, racist organization. The fact that our president last year was a Bolivian woman should be taken as suggestive of this fact that members who are neither white nor male are not only welcomed, but valued and respected. And please do not accuse me of “tokenizing”; if any reference to diversity is taken as tokenizing, then I would inquire how it is possible ever to demonstrate any sort of inclusivity or defend oneself against a charge of exclusivity.
    3) The attempt to discredit JSC as a credible organization because it throws a lot of parties is not only misleading, but also a complete red herring. Firstly, I would challenge the assumption that an organization that has parties is in any way less valid for that fact. It is perfectly legitimate for a cultural organization to have parties, since they contribute to the goal of developing a strong community, and do not necessarily (or even likely) erode the organization’s ability to serve its other functions. Furthermore, I can tell you that there has been only one JSC-sponsored party this term; please contrast this to our weekly Shabbat services, weekly Torah study, special holiday services, movie and game nights most Tuesdays, and weekly challah baking – not to mention various special discussion events and speakers. Even if you do somehow find parties to be a negative thing, please place them in the context of the organizations’ other events.
    4) Your suggestion that the JSC excludes parts of the Carleton Jewish community is patently unfair. Yes, we only have one set of services each week, so it is difficult to create something which is consistently gratifying for every single member of our diverse community. But we attempt to have a range of events – both secular and religious – and to incorporate elements of various movements within Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) in our services. Half our services every term are student-led, and we welcome any member of the community to volunteer to lead services, meaning that everyone has the opportunity to bring their own particular traditions and beliefs. Furthermore, the attempt to reach out to people not involved in JSC and to make our organization more welcoming and appealing has consistently been one of our board’s top priorities. At the end of last year, we had a meeting, open to all, seeking input on how to make the community more welcoming. While the JSC is not a perfect organization, it is undeniable that it makes an honest effort to welcome difference.

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  23. (continued)

    5) To your criticisms of Israel. Your criticisms rest almost entirely on quotations from Theodore Hertzl, a man who, as you pointed out, lived over a century ago. Of course he displays the limitations and prejudices of his era. This does not excuse them, but it does explain them, and it does provide us with just reason for not simply dismissing him as a bigot. Jefferson owned slaves; Lincoln would surely have scoffed at the idea of women’s suffrage – does this mean that we should throw them out as bigots, too? Of course not. So look more closely at historical Zionism. Yes, it certainly has its flaws, but there are also merits. The early Zionists (and I would urge you to specifically examine the history of the kibbutz movements as one of the major forces within Zionism) advocated economic equality, equal rights for women, and direct democracy in a time when these ideas were extremely progressive, even radical. It is intellectually irresponsible to dismiss a historical idea for failing to conform to modern notions of morality, and it is necessary to place the ideology as a whole within its historical context in order to draw out both its successes and shortcomings.
    6) In a similar line of criticism, your only primary source on the nature of Zionism is from Hertzl, and yet you feel that this is sufficient evidence to characterize the current conflict as a “genocide.” Hertzl certainly lay the groundwork of Zionism, but you must surely recognize that the Zionist movement, and Israeli policy, have changed rather a lot in the last century. Critics of Zionism and Israel fall into this trap of focusing on grievances from a half-century ago to the exclusion of modern realities. I certainly agree that Israel has treated the Palestinians poorly in a variety of ways. However, in evaluating the current situation, you need to balance redress of past grievances with what is possible in the present. Israel exists, and millions of people live there. You can’t just argue that Zionism should never have happened. The state of Israel exists, and that most people alive now – both Israeli and Palestinian – didn’t bring that about. The discussion has moved on, and denying validity to Israel is completely unproductive. At a certain point, we need to leave the past to historians and confront the present. A first step would be an examination of modern writings on Israeli and Palestinian politics.
    7) On a related note, I question your use of the term “genocide” to refer to the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. Certain Israeli policies have made the lives of many Palestinians very difficult. But genocide? A systematic program of mass murder? Do not make such serious charges without significant evidence to support them. And to label any sort of lesser crime as genocide only serves to weaken and dilute the strength of the word, detract from the real genocides in the world, and confuse the debate. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to make of Israeli policy without such irresponsible hyperbole.

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  24. (continued - sorry for such an obscenely long post)

    8) You dismiss Zionism as a form of white supremacy, yet neglect several relevant historical facts which cast serious doubt on that claim. Firstly, Zionism originated in a historical context in which Jews were considered to be non-white and racially inferior. Zionism was in many respects a response to racism. Secondly, it was the Zionist ideal that led Israel to encourage the immigration to Israel of Jews of all over the world – from Europe, yes, but also Arab Jews, African Jews, and on and on. Members of my own family immigrated to Israel from South America – and I now have Moroccan-Israeli cousins, too. So, while there are no doubt valid criticisms to make of Zionism, the simple claim that it is a form of white supremacy is clearly out of touch with the historical reality and the demographics of Israel.
    9) Finally (and I am sorry for getting so carried away and writing so much), I would question the line that you implicitly draw between Zionism and other forms of patriotism or ethic/cultural pride. Do we not ordinarily celebrate it when a government provides support for and encouragement to a particular culture which is relatively small and un-influential on the world stage? When Guatemala provided recognition to its indigenous Maya languages and pledged support for their particular customs, did we cry foul? When European governments support, say, the revival of Welsh or Basque or Catalan culture, is this racist? How is Israel being a Jewish state any different? It is, very evidently, not exclusive along racial lines. It is a cultural issue – any person can choose to adopt Judaism and be recognized as fully Jewish by Israel. So long as the government doesn’t suppress or discriminate against minority groups – and remember that Israeli Arabs and Druze have full Israeli citizenship, and there are Arab Israeli members of parliament – I think there needs to be more work done on your part to demonstrate that government support for one particular culture that would otherwise be at great risk on the world stage represents bigotry and racism rather than a reasonable and defensible step to encourage global diversity.
    I would be very interested to hear your responses to these issues that I have raised and to debate the question further.
    And, again, sorry for the absurdly long post.

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  26. Honestly, most of these comments seem pretty off topic to me. From my perspective, the post was about listening to the frequently silenced and ignored voices of Arab and Arab-American women (not speaking for them, *listening* to them)who have experienced, and continue to experience, incredible amounts of violence. Some of the other discussions happening seem worth having, but I think they are taking away from what I saw as the point of the post: to start conversations about a marginalized group of people and how we are implicated in their marginalization.

    p.s. I'm Jewish, since apparently that is enough to give me legitimacy to speak on the matter.

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  27. Hey Alex,

    1. I did not say that all white men do this. I said that in the discussion, where I was present, the white men there DID this. Were you at this event to negate this?

    2. I have already addressed how this is negating the perspective of Arab-Americans, I will not do this again.

    3. I wholeheartedly agree that the JSC puts on an large number of events. I by no means want to negate that. I did not intend to cast partying in a negative light, either. There was one sentence: "I do know one thing: They party a lot" No pejorative connotation was intended. I apologize for this effect.

    4. I have also already addressed this.

    5&6. The importance of looking at the roots of Zionism (or any movement) is that these roots are incredibly formative and telling. If these roots have roots in racism, which is the perspective of the Arab-American women that I have tried numerous times to re-center in this discussion, then the modern manifestation will have this history to deal with. We cannot leave behind the past. We are not blank slates. I at no point denied the validity of the state of Israel nor did I deny the validity of Judaism. I have no intent to do this. I am criticizing the actions of a state and I implicate the United States in these actions as well.

    7. The definition of genocide, according to dictionary.com, is "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." The international legal definition of genocide (according to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide) as: any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    * (a) Killing members of the group;
    * (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    * (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    Do with that what you will.

    8. Once again this comment neglects the fact that in my post I was trying to re-center the perspectives of Arab-American women who are frequently ignored and silenced even in feminist women of color circles. This post does not negate that there are Jews of color or that Judaism is not an inclusive religion. It is criticizing the actions of the state of Israel based on the perspectives of Palestinian women who feel marginalized and oppressed.

    9. This "implicit line" is something I had no intention of implying. And I guess I'll harp along the same line, this is negating that some Palestinian people might not want to convert to Judaism, but I do not feel they should be uprooted from their homes because of this. I don't really understand what you're saying about the revival of cultures; the Palestinian people have been in that region for a long time, so technically a revival of culture would honor them. Also, please, I do not appreciate you telling me what I should or should not do. I find that extremely condescending.

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  28. I am not sure that a long online debate is a good use of my time, so I am just going to make a few responses to what I see as the main issues and call it quits.

    Your response to nearly every criticism I raise is centered on the feelings of the Palestinian-American women who wrote the article that you base your views on. For instance, in dismissing a point which I raised, you write "this is negating the perspective of Arab Americans", and then proceed as if this is sufficient to close the conversation. I appreciate the importance of trying to bring in diverse voices and allow them to impact a discussion. But how is it appropriate to use these voices to exclude all others? I recognize that these women may experience Israeli policies in a particular way. But that does not preclude the validity of counter-claims, nor free you from the obligation to deal with the substance of opposing opinions. You have every right to found an argument in their experience, but if you want to engage in a serious and profitable discussion of the topic as a whole, rather than merely parrot the opinions of one group or another, then you need to be willing to grapple with various sources of information and various viewpoints. I respect your right to hold opinions that I strongly disagree with, and really do enjoy a good debate, but I wish that you would engage in a debate rather than seeking to exclude opposing opinions.

    A second point that I do not wish to let go of is regarding genocide. Since you do not retract your prior statement that Israel is committing genocide, then I presume that you believe that the definition that you cite supports this argument. Can you perhaps provide some data to support this? The Holocaust was a genocide, the slaughter of the Armenians in WWI was a genocide, what happened in Rwanda was a genocide, there is genocide in Sudan right now. Life is difficult in the occupied territories, no disputing that, but you must admit that there is a long distance separating these genocides and the situation in the Palestinian territories - namely, while Israel does control these areas through force, it does not have anything even remotely approaching a system aimed at the destruction of the Palestinian people. There are plenty of terms to condemn Israeli actions that are still very strong - why insist on using one which is clearly inaccurate and whose emotional weight will inevitably distort the discussion

    And, finally, I would like to register my disappointment with you for having removed Colin's post, which made the valid and important point that the Hertzl quote that you cite is in reference to removing Jews from Europe, not Palestinians from Israel/Palestine. I am willing to believe that this misinterpretation was an honest mistake, but now that it has been identified, your credibility as a serious partner for discussion depends on your willingness to recognize that fact. Deleting his post does not negate the factuality of his claim, and has the effect of lowering the quality of the entire discussion by knowingly allowing it to continue on false premises.

    And with that, I'm done here. This is a discussion I would love to have, but I'm not spending any more time so long as you refuse to address legitimate objections and engage in a full and proper debate.

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  29. This was the response to my post so I am going to respond in that manner. Perhaps we are trying to have two separate conversations. I am intending to center the opinions of Arab and Arab women in this discussion because historically, culturally, and institutionally, these voices have been and continue to be oppressed and marginalized. So I think, given this context, it is entirely valid to continue referring to them. It would be too much of me speaking for them if I were to do otherwise. Regardless of whether or not I wholly agree with these women, I feel it is imperative, that is, of the utmost importance, that these voices be heard.

    Would you say this about the perspectives of Africans and African-Americans in the United States during the time of slavery? Would you honestly say that we need to "look at other perspectives" when they were enslaved, killed, and oppressed? These situations are obviously very distinct, even the manifestations of their oppression are distinct, but the oppression is rooted in some of the same ideas, that is, that some people have more legitimacy and more right to whatever they are claiming than other people.

    If you do not feel that what is happening there is genocide, I cannot convince you of anything. According to Noam Chomsky, 1,300 Palestinians have been killed at the Gaza Strip and I do not believe that genocide focuses on extermination via death. The conditions under which Palestinians are forced to live strip them of access to medical care, food, and safety. One example of this how pregnant women are held up at security points and forced to give birth there without medical care. You supply more evidence that it is genocide when you assert that Palestinians can live in Israel when they convert to Judaism; this is cultural assimilation, and I feel cultural assimilation is nothing less than violence. So, the word does contain emotional significance and weight, I think especially for Jewish people due to their historical context, but I feel it is and will be immoral to use that to turn a blind eye to what is happening in Palestine.

    Because you raise pertinent issues in your other paragraphs, I will not be removing your comment, but I respectfully disagree with what you have said about Colin. His comment showed no respect for me and his point was neither well articulated nor relevant to our discussion. Once again, as I have now had to state this twice, maybe even three times, this was not my interpretation, but the interpretation of the Arab-American women who wrote the piece. It is entirely possible that they have made this "honest mistake" but I cannot apologize for them as I am not them. This "claim" of Colin's is irrelevant to a discussion of the marginalization and oppression of people both in Palestine and the United States.

    So, I appreciate your thoughts, but I find it offensive that you do not feel the centering of Arab and Arab American women to be "addressing legitimate objections." I am very glad that you can be removed enough from this topic to call it a "debate," but I would argue that for others it is a matter of their safety and security. And I continue to find any objection to my "credibility" offensive.

    And a note to everyone reading this, while you're here, why don't you go read some of the other things I've written?

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  30. Clearly we are not getting anywhere, and as much as I want to believe that a reasonable discussion can come to a reasonable conclusion, this appears not to be occurring in this case. This is from a book on a different topic, but these words stood out as crystallizing the error you make - not in crediting the words of the Palestinian women, but as regarding them as a sufficiently authoritative source as to justify ruling out all others (and even if you are simply quoting them, as you say, by promoting and publicizing a certain version of the story and rejecting competing narratives, you must surely recognize that you are at least implicitly endorsing their account). The words of victims are always worthy of attention, but in any human conflict, every player and every perspective is flawed, and no one perspective should be accepted as sufficient. Humans generally don't oppress other humans without some sort of reason. It may not be a good reason, but it is a reason nonetheless. A conflict cannot be understood, much less resolved, unless the motives which created it are understood. Maybe this quotation from David Stoll's book "Rigoberta Menchu and the Story of All Poor Guatemalans" can explain what I have apparently failed to make sufficiently clear.

    "Since the 1980s a theoretical literature indicting Western knowledge as inherently colonialist has acquired considerable prestige in North American universities. In parts of the humanities and social sciences, its exponents look like the new establishment. Under various headings, such as cultural studies and postmodernism, much of this literature carries on the self-critical, empirical tradition of Western thought. But the new theories can also be used to shut down investigation and debate, by reducing intellectual discourse to relations of power and dismissing opposed points of view as reactionary.
    Here is how what purports to be critical thinking degenerates into dogmatism: if any empirical portrait of a sensitive subject reflects ethnocentric or bourgeois assumptions... [then] there is not much sense in debating the fine points... Instead, what matters is the "metanarrative" - the discourse of power lurking behind the text. In the case of the book you hold in your hands, a white male anthropologist is accusing an indigenous woman of making up part of her story. The important issue is not whether she did or not. Instead, it is Western domination, which I am obviously purpetrating. Reasoning like this enables Rigoberta's story [the indigenous testimony challenged in this book] to be removed from the field of testable propositions, to instead become a proof-text that foreigners can use to validate themselves.
    But how do we decide to which victims to listen? ...the testimony of victims can be used to discourage unwelcome questions. Not all victims are enshrined in this manner - just the ones who serve our purposes, because enshrining certain claims to vicitimhood involves rejecting others. What result are stereotypes reducing the complexities of history, inequality, and ambition to melodramas populated by stock characters, who will always meet our expectations because we disqualify evidence that they do not.
    For scholars insecure about their moral right to depict 'the Other,' testimonio and related appeals to the native voice have been a godsend. By incorporating native voice into the syllabus and deferring to it on occasion, we validate our authority by claiming to abdicate it. This is not necessarily a bad thing...But in an era of truth comissions, when there is a public demand to establish facts, priviledging one version of a history of land conflic and homicide will not do. What if, on comparing the most hallowed testimonio with others, we find that it is not reliable in certain important ways? Then we would have to acknowledge that there is no substitute for our capacity to judge competing versions of events, to exercise our authority as scholars." (Stoll, 276-277)

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  31. Alex,

    I will respond to your irrelevant post with something relevant, not to the discussion of marginalized and oppressed groups, but to the Palestine/Israel "conflict."

    I will quote by Shlomo Sand, a professor at the University of Tel Aviv. In his internationally bestselling book "The Invention of the Jewish People," he goes on to argue the following:

    "The Zionist idea was born in the second half of the nineteenth century in Central and Eastern Europe, in the lands between Vienna and Odessa. [...] While a significant number of its ideological progenitors belonged more or less to the Germanic culture - Moses Hess, Theodor Herzl, Max Nordau - those who developed, disseminated, and implemented its theories came from intelligentsia of the widespread Yiddish population [...] in these regions there was a secular, modern Yiddishist civilization [...] it was this distinctive culture, rather than religion, that incubated the protonationalist and nationalist ferment" (252).

    "Zionists emulated the other nationalists in Europe and assumed an ethnoreligious or ethnobiological identity to conceptualize their self-definition. [...] To achieve their aim, the Zionists needed to erase existing ethnographic textures, forget specific histories, and take a flying leap backward to an ancient, mythological and religious past" (255).

    "As [Nathan] Birnbaum [who coined the term Zionism and was perhaps the first Zionist intellectual] saw it, neither language nor culture, but only biology, could account for the rise of nations. Otherwise it was not possible to explain the existence of a Jewish nation [...] Though he coined the term Zionism, he was not one of the leading thinkers of the new nationalism" (257-258).

    "Theodor Herzl, the true founder of the Zionist movement, was less certain, and could not decide if the Jews arose from a homogeneous source [...] It was Max Nordau, Herzl's confidante and right hand, and the person who conducted all the early Zionist congresses, who gave a more meaningful ideological dimension to the rise of Jewish nationalsm [...] This Zionist leader, convinced that the Jews shared a homogeneous biological origin, wrote about the 'blood ties that exist in the Israelite family'. But he wondered whether the Jews had always been physically small or had been made shorter by the conditions of their lives, which caused them to be weak and degenerate" (259).

    "Vladimir Jabotinsky, the leader of Zionist revisionism, [agreed that] Jews have a distinctive blood that sets them apart from other people. [...] 'Race' was always a scientific concept for Jabotinsky. He believed that even if there were no truly pure races, there was a 'racial formula' [...] Without the protective armor of religion, prolonged residence among other nations might dissolve that distinctiveness and cause them to vanish. They should thus gather as soon as possible in a state of their own" (261).

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  32. Another important figure is Arthur Ruppin, "a confirmed Darwinist throughout his life. He believed that the Jewish nation was primarily a biological entity. He was aware that the Jews were not a "pure race" since in the course of their wanderings in the world they had absorbed alien elements. Nevertheless, they constituted a hereditary unit, which alone gave substance to their national demands" (262).

    Ruppin did not believe all Jews to be equal in ability however, stressing, "It is perhaps owing to this severe process of selection that the Ashkenazim are to-day superior in activity, intelligence, and scientific capacity to the Sephardim and Arabian Jews, in spite of their common ancestry. [...] But while there were doubts about the immigrations of Jews from the Arab East, the Ashkenazi Jews were urged to hurry and return to their homeland so as to preserve and protect what was left of their racial distinction. For Ruppin, as for other proponents of Zionism, assimilation of the Jews among the gentiles was an even greater threat to the existence of the people than the gentiles' hatred: 'It is certain, however, that by intermarriage the race-character is lost, and that descendants of a mixed marriage are not likely to have any remarkable gifts.' [...] He was the father of Jewish settlement, and it would not be an exaggeration to say that Ruppin was to Zionist colonization what Herzl was for the organized national movement" (263-264).


    "It should be noted, however, that the Jewish blood theory was not held exclusively by the handful of leading thinkers quoted above. It was popular in all currents of the Zionist movement, and its imprint can be found in almost all its publications, congresses and conferences. [...] The concept of Jewish heredity, and even the theory of eugenics associated with it, was especially prominent among the scientists and physicians who joined Zionism. [...] The greatest of them all was the well-known physician and biologist Redcliffe Nathan Salaman. This British Zionist [...] was also the first to try to transpose assumptions from physical anthropology to genetics [...] There were of course differences between the fair Ashkenazi and the swarthy Sephardi, but the reasons for them were straightforward: the latter had mixed more with their neighbors. [...] The reason Yemenite Jews were of smaller stature and submissive character was that 'they are not Jews. They are black, with an elongated skull, Arab half-castes ... The true Jew is the European Ashkenazi, and I support him against all others.'

    "Salaman was more of a eugenecist than a geneticist; to him, Zionism was a eugenic project designed to improve the Jewish race" (267).

    I have acquiesced to requests to move away from Arab-Palestinian women. However I want it to be very clear that I feel centering their perspective on this matter is imperative. In my opinion, power structures do comprise, by and large, relations, and do speak to why some people's opinions and voices are valued more than others'.

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  33. Laura,

    After reading all of the posts here, including the ones removed before they reached the chopping block, I would like to know what you were hoping to achieve with this post.

    In censoring level headed, intelligent, thoughtful, and clearly well-educated, if oppositional comments, you stand in complete contrast with what it seems you seek to accomplish in dialoge. You mention that you wish to let the voices of the marginalized be heard. From that position, censoring any other point of view drips with hypocrisy.

    Please understand that while your point of view may have merit and you are surely free to believe what you will, your argument may stir up controversy in circles you might expect and also in some that you might not.

    By not letting all sides state their case, you eliminate any chance of a healthy dialogue to emerge from this issue. Once that possibility is gone, there can be no constructive outcome from such a post as this.

    Furthermore, I found your dismissal of a post quite offensive and it alarms me that you are not open to have a free discussion on such a serious topic.

    Respectfully,
    Danny

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  34. Danny,

    While you attempt to manipulate the past, I will stand by previous comments I have made. The comments were not respectful and, being the moderator of this blog, I have the ability to decide this.

    I have already addressed the issue of "letting all sides state their case."

    In conclusion, you, like the hateful comments I deleted, have provided nothing to the furthering of this conversation. I suggest you read all of the comments and attempt to make a statement based on what HAS been said.

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  35. Laura,
    As someone whose comment you deleted, I don't think that I was any more strident or disrespectful than you have been. All I tried to do was further the conversation, because I saw that the only viewpoints that had been made were not representative of my viewpoint. If you take issue with what I said, that's fine—I welcome the opportunity to be challenged by opposing views in debate. Removing my comment, however, only served to stifle and censor a conversation that, as you said, needs to be had. I apologize if I seemed in any way disrespectful.

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  36. Laura,

    "Attempt to manipulate the past"? For crying out loud, what is he, 21 or 22 at most? He wasn't there! And for that matter, neither were you. You are both drawing the best conclusions you can from the evidence that exists today. Comments like that one clearly demonstrate that you have no respect whatsoever for the intelligence and good faith of your classmates (not just random people on the internet, mind you, but people with whom you live and work), and I find that amazing coming from someone who calls herself progressive and advocates open-mindedness.

    I think it's admirable to try to bring to light the voices of people who have been ignored in the past. However, your defensive and condescending responses to everyone in this thread have negated any positive effect that this post may have had. I have read your other posts and noted that, especially in the post about the Carleton trustee who is involved with conservative groups, your main defense when challenged seems to be "that's not what I meant." However, you never edit your posts to reflect your supposed actual meaning. Perhaps what needs a change here is not your readers' opinions, but your rhetoric, because going by your responses to comments, your writing seems to be consistently misinterpreted. Why, for example, have you not edited the post to reflect what you now know about the JSC? If you, and I quote, "were not previously aware of the workings of what they do", why have you continued to publicly support the view that all they do is party and exclude people of color? What's more, you do not seem to give the comments of others the consideration you expect them to give your posts. How can you completely dismiss Alex's quotation as irrelevant when the entire discussion has been about the legitimacy of uncritically accepting (as you obviously did, or you would have done some research about the "penniless population" quote before you used it as proof that Israel is committing genocide) the testimony of oppressed groups?

    I know you'll probably delete this post like all the others, but I just hope I've helped you to see how you can come across to your fellow students.

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  38. Wow, that was fast.

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  39. Dear a fellow student:

    When I was referring to manipulations of the past, I was referring to James' take on Jonathan's comment. I am almost certain that this person was alive for this event.

    Which gets me to my next point, I have been saying that people are misinterpreting my words because they have been. I don't know how to go back and edit my comment such that you do not perceive of me talking about Israel, as I thought that was clear if one were to read both James' reply and my own.

    This conversation has ceased to be about either the perspective of Arab-American women nor Zionism and Anti-Semitism, but has become a personal attack. I am not going to tolerate any more of this, because I do not have to. As people continue to misattribute my "finding that quote" (which I did not) I will continue to correct them. But it is fairly clear to me that I was not listened to.

    So, on another note, has anyone bothered to read the two comments I provided that talk about leaders of the Zionist movement? Does anyone have historical perspective to add, or questions to ask?

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  40. Actually, I looked up the "penniless population" quote, and it does seem to be about the Palestinians, not the Jews in Europe. So yeah, to be fair, Herzl was an ass.

    I would ask what you propose should be done now, since, as Alex mentioned, there are millions of people who have lived in Israel for generations, now. Are you suggesting the state should be disbanded?

    Also, I wasn't asking that you edit your comment, but saying that if so many people have been misinterpreting your writing, maybe it's because the writing is flawed, not their interpretive skills. That's not a personal attack – if someone were to come onto my blog and say that they didn't think I was conveying my ideas clearly enough (and yes, I have a blog, and yes, this has happened to me) I would edit my post to attempt to convey what I had originally intended. When you don't do that, it makes me think you're just using the "I didn't mean it" defense as an excuse to make whatever statements you want without backing them up (again, that's just how it seems! I'm not personally attacking you; I don't know you.)

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  41. A fellow student:

    I am by no means suggesting that Israel should be disbanded. Once again I will reiterate that I at no point meant or stated any words that implicated that the state of Israel should not exist. What I am trying to do is call attention to how the state of Israel acts, and what we can do to stop people from dying and being oppressed and marginalized.

    The reason I take editing my comments and posts as an attack is because I feel I say exactly what I mean when I say it. So, when people say I "imply" things, or talk about topics and issues I never once touched in the things I wrote, I do not see how my words could be altered to make people see that what they read wasn't the words I put on paper/the Interwebz.

    At this point, what I am working toward, through those quotes and this post, is the acknowledgment that Zionism stems not from religious thought but secular colonialism and white supremacy. I provide extensive quotes that support this, which can be read in these comments, and would like to work toward discussion how all of us (myself included) can acknowledge the sufferings of Arab-American women and Palestinians here in the United States and in the Israel/Palestine "conflict," and seek to respect their needs and concerns. I would like to work toward holding people accountable for their actions. That is, holding the state of Israel accountable for their actions that seek to displace, destroy, and oppress Palestinian people. Furthermore, to hold the United States government accountable for allowing and supporting these actions.

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  43. This is what you wrote about the JSC:

    "I don't know much about the JSC... but I remember having a conversation with people about how white the JSC is. And possibly even a conversation about how their services don't support all sects of Judaism. What I do know is: they party a lot."

    How could this NOT be interpreted as, "The JSC is exclusive based on color and sect, and all they do is party"? This is what you've been saying people "misread", and even when information has been brought to your attention that negates those claims, you have not edited the original post to reflect that information. In my opinion, that's bad blogging practice. Writing is all ABOUT implication and subtext; if everyone is interpreting your writing the same way, clearly that IS what it implies, and you have not communicated your message the way you hoped to. No one can possibly always "say exactly what [they] mean when [they] say it."

    Also, I never said you said the state of Israel shouldn't exist; I ASKED you if that was your opinion. Now that I know it isn't, I would like to know what your suggestions are for how to address the conflict. (I'm honestly ambivalent about this issue; I have trouble believing either side because they both tend toward propaganda. However, the issues you raise are real.)

    P.S. As one blogger to another, stop deleting comments. If they're really as hateful and stupid as you say they are, they'll speak for themselves and no one will pay attention to them. Deleting them makes you look like you're trying to suppress arguments you have no answer for.

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  44. Do you want your view challenged? I'll challenge it:
    If the State of Israel stopped defending herself against terrorists, she would be overrun by Hamas extremists who have pledged to murder every last Jew in the world. What do you want Israel to do? If she ignores the rockets falling on her cities, she will be standing by watching her people get murdered. If she imposes a blockade to block the flow of Iranian weapons, it is true that many Gazas suffer. No-one in Israel wants to minimize this suffering. How, on the other hand, can Israel sit back and watch the régime in Gaza stockpile weapons designated for her destruction? As soon as a radical, fascist government is not in power in Gaza, the blockade will vanish.
    I must secondly ask you: Where do you get these notions that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians from? Zionism has nothing to do with genocide or "white supremacy." In fact, it was formed in the context of a world that wanted to destroy the Jews precisely because they weren't viewed as White. Where do you see any motivation for genocide? As someone who knows many Israelis, I am beyond able to assure you that that is a notion completely removed from everything that Israel stands for.
    Finally, when it comes to who bears ultimate responsibility, the situation is much more complex than you have made it seem. For one, the reason that the Palestinians are living in squalor in refugee camps is that most Arab countries (with the notable exception of Jordan) have refused to grant them citizenship. Why? This is because if the Palestinians are living in abject poverty, that is one more thing to blame on Israel/the West. The reason the Gazans are living in such a terrible state is that they are ruled by a fascist, Islamist régime.
    I must also note that along with the exodus of Arabs from Israel during the fighting in 1948, a comparable number of Jews fled Arab countries fleeing a wave of state-engineered, publicly supported anti-Semitism. I now more than one family that fled such persecution. These Jews who fled were welcomed by the state of Israel, while the Arabs who had fled were spurned by Arab countries and made to live in squalor, for the reason delineated above.
    Please do not delete this post.

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  45. What was your intention with regard to the JSC? Your lead in to your comment referenced white supremacy and racism. You did not separate this thought and your comment about the JSC by a paragraph. Clearly you wanted the two ideas to connected. Either your writing is flawed and you refuse to correct it, or you are accusing the JSC of being a white supremacist and racist organization. You brought this up - obviously people are offended by what you've said. Now it's your chance to either revise your original post or really show the world your misguided views.

    On a side note, you seem to believe that providing very selective quotes to support your believe somehow makes it true. You can't possibly believe this, can you?

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  46. "At this point, what I am working toward, through those quotes and this post, is the acknowledgment that Zionism stems not from religious thought but secular colonialism and white supremacy [...] I would like to work toward discussi[ng] how all of us (myself included) can acknowledge the sufferings of Arab-American women and Palestinians here in the United States and in the Israel/Palestine "conflict," and seek to respect their needs and concerns. I would like to work toward holding people accountable for their actions. That is, holding the state of Israel accountable for their actions that seek to displace, destroy, and oppress Palestinian people. Furthermore, to hold the United States government accountable for allowing and supporting these actions."

    The way I am more comfortable with going about "activism" is trying to get people to examine their beliefs and trying to get people to think critically about situations instead of just spouting whatever dominant ideologies they have internalized. So I guess my first tendency would be something like "awareness of the issue, awareness that these people feel oppressed and marginalized, and then acting on that, I guess one way would be to give them voice, as I tried to do with this post. In short, attempting to meet the needs and concerns of Arab-American women by listening to them." Secondary answers include looking into grassroots organizations that seek to alter governmental practices and maybe getting involved with those or lobbying/writing to people, but that's not really my type of activism. That said, chance can happen in many ways and I think it's important to recognize that.

    But upon second read maybe that doesn't really answer how to address the conflict. I think that's really hard because it's a conversation about really getting people to listen. And from what I have observed here, people sometimes have trouble listening to some things. I thought the attempt at Chili night was thoughtful and well put together but ultimately didn't make people listen. I am totally open to suggestions on this, what do you think will make people listen in this situation?

    PS sorry for seeming snappy about the state of Israel thing, a lot of people have asserted that I HAVE implied or stated that I do not support the existence of Israel, which has been frustrating for me. I do not know how to separate the acts of the Israeli government from the state of Israel's existence in the minds of other people.

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  47. I would respectfully ask that you please clarify your intention for including the sentence:

    "And I'm positive there is at least one strong Zionism supporters who is a faculty member at Carleton."

    I will refrain from making any assumptions until said clarification is received.

    Thank you.

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  48. Regarding the JSC, my intention was to start by saying that I didn't see the JSC dealing with the notion that Zionism is white supremacist and colonialist. So, I didn't see them acknowledging the viewpoint of Arab and Arab-American people or having a critical lens on how Zionism could be seen as white supremacist, given its origins. Then I wanted to state the little I did know about the JSC, and did not have the vocabulary of Ashkenazi and did not word the connections between whiteness and the Ashkenazi sect of Judaism well.

    As to the quotes, they're from a book. And yes, I've selected from the book because it is over 300 pages long. I would highly encourage people to go read the whole book, which will undoubtedly be more comprehensive than the selection of quotes I have pulled from it.

    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true," so I'll say that I think it is a perspective that is marginalized and silenced, and I think it is a perspective that lacks power, and I think there is evidence that supports the view. However, I also feel that people can manipulate data to make it represent whatever they want, and that ultimately there is power and experience that dictates what happens in the world.

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  49. In reference to the sentence stated above, I was remembering one faculty member during the Chili night who had very passionate beliefs about the existence of Israel and viewed any attempt to look at the acts of the state of Israel as an attack on the right of that state to exist.

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  50. According to the definition of Zionism provided by the people I have tried to center again and again in my analysis, Zionism is "a settler-colonial political movement that seeks to ethnically cleanse historical Palestine of the indigenous population and populate it as a Jewish-only state." (see above post)

    So we are going to disagree about the definition of Zionism here.

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  51. I'd like you to know that there were several meetings, publicized to the whole campus, in which the JSC debated it's official stance on Israel. In these discussions, many voices were heard: people who'd characterize themselves as Zionists, anti-Zionists, pro-Israel, pro-Palestine, pro-peace, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, etc. There were even meetings earlier this year to discuss the role of parties within the JSC. What more would you like to see happen?

    You publicize this blog on your facebook for everyone to see. You invited comments from readers in your original blog post. Before you attack another group on campus, do a little research. I would imagine that it would benefit everyone.

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  52. I think that good writing will make people listen. If you include many sources to support your claims, including sources that aren't immediately dismissed (for whatever reason) as biased by your audience, they will have more to go off of when considering the issues you raise. For example, providing facts and statistics rather than quoting people's opinions. Also, not making unfounded claims about organizations that your intended audience has a stake in (I'm assuming here that you would like to engage Jewish Carleton students) in the first place might help. People read that paragraph and assumed that if you could be so boldly wrong about one thing, your whole post must not be worth listening to. So just make sure you can support everything you say, is what I'm getting at.

    I have to ask, though: do you mean "listen", or do you mean "listen and agree with you"? Because I think people are listening, they just aren't agreeing. On the other hand, I do think a lot of the reaction is knee-jerk defensiveness (probably brought on by your attacks on the JSC).

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  53. Laura,
    I know what the Arab-American women said. It is a calumniation of Zionism. Just as you said in the beginning of this conversation, you don't like it when people speak for others. There is no-one in Israeli society, save for a few fringe right-wing extremists, who wants to commit "ethnic cleansing." Like I said two posts ago, the suffering of the Palestinians is very real, but it is often used to fit into an anti-Western polemic that has allowed many authoritarian dictators to stay in power by blaming society's problems on the Jews. Ever wonder why we don't hear much about the millions murdered in the Congo, or the massacres of Palestinians carried out by the governments of Syria and Jordan, or the countless unspeakable acts committed by oppressors around the globe? Now you do. I can see why the Americans you quote were indignant, but their claims are based on a narrative of propaganda. Again, I don't want to make it seem as if the Palestinians aren't suffering.

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  54. I think that everyone here needs to go home and do some reading on the history of this subject. Lack of context leads to mistakes and misrepresentations on all sides. For example, Laura, you say that "according to Noam Chomsky, 1,300 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip." I've checked that figure, and as it seems to correspond to the figure generally given for the number of deaths in the most recent round of fighting in Gaza, I will presume that this is what you were referencing. But why did that fighting happen? If we just look at the statement - Israel killed 1300 Palestinians - then it might seem to support your claim that Israel is genocidal/racist/etc. But let's get some context. The Israeli incursion into Gaza which caused those deaths was proceeded by a year or so of nearly daily rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli cities and civilian targets. Suddenly, it doesn't sound so clear-cut. But maybe they were launching rockets to resist the occupation - that could be justified, after all. The only problem with that rationale is that Israel had withdrawn all troops and settlements from Gaza. Withdrawn unconditionally, and not without facing political resistance from the right wing in Israel. It was in the wake of this withdrawal that Hamas seized power in Gaza and turned it into a giant launching pad to attack the cities of Israel, and turned the entire population of Gaza into human shields. (And of course it's all come around again, as the negative Palestinian response to the Israeli withdrawal led to disenchantment in Israel with the possibility for peace, and so now we find them with a hawkish government that promotes settlements and is less likely to favor negotiation, which in turn breeds more resentment among the Palestinians, and so the cycle goes around again.) My point is, this is a complicated issue. It's easy for either side to seize on one casualty statistic, one tragic story, one act of violence and use it to categorically demonize and de-legitimize the other side. Let's not fall into that trap. There's plenty of blame to go around, but if there's one thing that should be clear, it is that it's inappropriate to write off Israel as being genocidal or racist - or to write off all Palestinians as terrorists or extremists. Let's tone down the rhetoric, and acknowledge that there's a lot of shades of gray, and while these Palestinian women whose writing you advocate have valid points to be made, they do not hold the only legitimate position.

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  55. Speaking of which, I just noticed that you described the women in your original post as Arab-American, not Palestinian. Are you saying they immigrated from Palestine after having experienced what they are writing about, or are they second- or third-generation Americans with no Palestinian ancestry? In that case, why do you want to focus exclusively on them? I'm just a little unclear.

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  56. The above Anonymous was written by Seth G.

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  57. Laura, regarding "black Jews" -Israel has absorbed close to 100000 such jews that they rescued from discrimination and starvation in Ethiopia over the last 20 years or so.

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  58. One last point on the "race" issue that made in a discussion many years back. Part of the reason Jewish populations tend to be less "black" than other perhaps other religious groups is that the Jewish ideology does not encourage conversions through discussion or force. Many blacks coming from Africa or residing in Africa were subjected to both Christian persuasion, Islamic persuasion and in many cases military force bent on forced conversions. As noted earlier however, there are African groups who have practiced Judaism for centuries and when they were in trouble, other Jews came to their rescue-a story not understood by the rest of the world.

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  59. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  60. To add to Seth's point about the ambiguity of the term "indigenous" in reference to the population of that region is that the Jews have been routinely exiled from that land at different points in time over the past 3,000 years. I don't see how the fact that we were forcibly removed from that land by Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, Crusaders and many others, makes our claim of indigenousness to it any less valid than Arab populations of that land. Also, I'd like to thank him for reminding us of the population of Arabs (who are full citizens) within Israel. That is a strong argument against the claim that Israel is an "apartheid state"
    Also, I believe you said that I was trying to "manipulate the past" in my defense (now also deleted) of Jonathan's post that was deleted. I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was really just sharing my opinion about his comments, which I found to be, at the very least, valid. Admittedly, I did so in a way that was not as level-headed as it could have been. All I meant to say was that I would have been interested to read your responses to his statements, rather than seeing you just delete his post. I apologize if anything I said was misconstrued

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  61. Laura, let me get this straight.
    You support the existence of the State of Israel, ("I at no point meant or stated any words that implicated that the state of Israel should not exist."), but you think that "the movement behind creating the state of Israel was founded in the idea of genocide and displacement of native people." You quote people saying that the State of Israel stems from "a settler-colonial political movement that seeks to ethnically cleanse historical Palestine of the indigenous population and populate it as a Jewish-only state," but you claim you're in support of the State's existence, which would put you in direct opposition of the viewpoint of the Arab-American women. Where do you actually stand? Are you in support of Israel and Zionism, or not? I'm a little confused.

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  62. Jonathan,

    To clarify, it is the way this state has MANIFESTED itself that I have a problem with, not the existence of the state itself. When I make this distinction, is this clear to you?

    I am sort of excited this conversation is sort-of going somewhere.

    To respond to some of the other comments, I think it would be misguided to say that Ashkenazi Jews have no power currently in society. They have white skin privilege if they have white skin. Period. This argument has been made before and I still think it is misguided because it is founded upon this "blood theory" of the Jewish people. Since this was first addressed by Abby, and I responded to her, I do not think that I was ignoring this. I merely am sick of repeating myself.

    It seems like many comments carry on in this vein. So let me state one final time, I am attempting to hold the state of Israel accountable for their actions. Shlomo Sand makes the argument (much stronger than mine, I can't really back this) that the Jewish people were never actually expelled from the land, so a return doesn't make sense. Palestinian women (these women are not second or third generation Americans, but at one point lived in Palestine and fled from the country) feel as though their suffering is ignored in activist circles, let alone in other areas. I am trying to give people who are oppressed a voice.

    Furthermore, I do not feel that the past exile of Jewish people somehow justifies the exile of Palestinian people today. There are clearly reparations that need to be made, but I do not feel this should happen at the expense of the lives and well-being of other people.

    I would also like to point out that I have provided extensive first-hand quotes from leaders and shapers of the Zionist movement. These quotes clearly identify that some Zionist thought was racist. This could not have entirely escaped the way Zionism was constructed.

    The silly thing is, this is shifting the focus entirely away from the needs and concerns of the people who are suffering. This is where I want to focus. These are the things I feel I must focus on to create a more just world.

    PS HI SETH!
    PPS Seriously, I recommend reading some of my other stuff. It applies to all y'all just as much as this post does.

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  63. And let's be pragmatic about this. There are three things that could be done tomorrow to end the Palestinians' suffering, and they are:
    1) Hamas could recognize Israel and stop firing rockets from the Gaza strip. There would be no more blockade.
    2)The governments of Egypt, Lebanon, etc. could give the Palestinian refugees citizenship, and stop blaming Israel for their problems. A little recognition wouldn't hurt, either.
    3) The PA could demonstrate commitment to establishing a moderate state (moderate, by the way, means more than just non-inclination towards terrorism) and remove the need for Israeli occupation.

    Israel's behavior is not the factor that needs to be changed. Would you please tell me how Israel might accomplish the goals of living peacefully with its neighbors, defending its citizens, and remaining Jewish and democratic, without expecting change from the other side? I'm curious about your prescription.

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  64. At this point in the conversation, when everyone seems to agree that Israel has the right to exist but that it does take inappropriate actions with greater or lesser frequency, it seems that it might be useful to introduce an alternative definition of Zionism. After all, the "definition" that the women offered, while it may or many not be a useful description of the necessary or actual results of Zionism, it seems more like a debatable claim about the impacts of Zionism rather than an actual definition. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, Zionism is "a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel." By providing this defintion, which leaves out the language regarding racism and so forth, I do not seek to exclude the possibility that racism is a trait of either historical or modern Zionism (though I do think that such a claim still requires proof, and that it is key to differentiate between the past and present incarnations of the ideology). Neither do I seek to exclude the perspective of the Arab-American women; I simply think that their claims should be evaluated on an equal level with all others, rather than allowed to set the terms for the entire debate. However, I do think that a more tempered definition, such as the one I offered, can help to highlight our similarities rather than differences. The ideologically-bound "definition" which was the starting point of this debate immediately polarized people into two camps, and, because it was treated (by some) as an immutable definition rather than a simple claim, it precluded a more subtle and reasonable investigation into the realities - both positive and negative - of Zionism. By adopting a more moderate definition, we lose that polarizing effect, and can all approach the claims made in a more empirical and rational manner, with far more room for middle ground. Everyone agrees, apparently, that Israel has the right to exist. Everyone also agrees that Israel makes mistakes, and that the Palestinians have suffered. Instead of slinging epithets, let's set these agreements up alongside the definition of Zionism and see how similar they are to that definition. It could be that the "Zionism" that you found so outrageous, Laura, was not really the core of the idea, but simply one perception of it; I am sure that, while some Likudniks might still have gotten angry at you for criticizing certain elements of Israeli policy, many of those who argued with you would have been far less upset if you had talked about Israeli policy rather than leveling your criticism against Zionism as a whole.

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  65. Agreed. Laura: Do you want to talk about Israeli policy rather than Israel's right to exist? Then don't start the conversation by saying that Zionism is based on "genocidal principles" or whatever. And instead of claiming that we're not being perceptive enough because we're not agreeing with you, start responding to the concrete historical facts hat have been presented to you.

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  66. Dear Anonymouses,

    I feel this "debate" is spinning in circles and constantly derailing from the intention of the post - to highlight the views of oppressed people in this scenario in an attempt to have their voices heard and validated. This has little to do with agreement or disagreement, but validation of experiences and feelings. From how I have perceived reactions to many of these statements, this attempt was in vain.

    Due to the increased level of what I deem "personal attacks" and a threatening e-mail I have received, I feel it would be best for me to remove myself entirely from this conversation. I think it is very unfortunate that it has come to this - that I feel the need to be silent for my emotional well being and that the voices I am trying to bring attention to aren't being listened to.

    I really appreciate everyone who tried to honestly listen to what the post had to say and tried to further the discussion. To those who made respectful comments, thank you.

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  67. The whole point of the debate against you was to demonstrate the invalidity of the Arab Americans' point of view by way of facts and historical analysis. Now that you've said that you're sitting out because some people didn't want to "validate" a hateful stream of propaganda ("Israel is a racist state that is founded upon a racist ideology that protects and preserves the rights of Jews only") that I found personally offensive. Now that you've said that this wasn't actually a debate, but rather a demand that we all subscribe to the point of view that you presented, I realize we've all been wasting our time.

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  68. *Now you've said that you're sitting out…

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  69. One last comment regarding the "white supremacy" notion. Also Laura please read my comments above. Their is one group other than Blacks that have been attacked most by White Supremacists historically and that would be Jews.If you were to understand that as fundamental then you would get why some of your statements sound so offensive. Their is room to support the rights of Palestinians, but if you fail to understand the historic vulnerability of the Jewish people and experiences that continue even today, you are missing an important part of the narrative. Indeed, within the USA Jews are doing well, but in the former Soviet Union, Ethiopia, various parts of South america, and even western countries in Europe such as France and Britain they have been undergoing increased attacks both verbally and physically. The jewish population of the world is about 15 mill, Christian about 2 billion, Muslim about `1.5 billion-this is why we may react strongly when the discussion centers on a safe homeland for our people.

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  70. Finally my last response as someone at that discussion. Many were upset that a discussion of and around "anti-Semitism" sponsored by a multi-cultural organizing group on campus took place without any invitation to the JSC-it was heard only indirectly. If there was a discussion about racism, or anti-women behavior, or homophobia, etc., how would such groups react if they were not invited to the debate-how can one engage in a discussion about bigotry and ignore those who might be the subject or sensitive to such bigotry?

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  71. Laura, I've been reading through all these posts, trying to sort out this conversation. You have said many times that you want to re-center the discussion on the perspective of women, and that you believe that this should be the core of this particular discussion. If that's the case, I would be interested to hear a response to the quotation that Alex posted from Stoll. You dismissed it as irrelevant, but I don't really see that. I mean, yeah, it's not talking about Palestinians in particular, but it is a generalized critique of the sort of argument that you are seeking to make, and suggesting that the work you are undertaking, in centering the discussion on the perspective of a particular group of victims, is unproductive. Since you are apparently quite committed to the method that he condemns, what would be your response?

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  72. Seth,

    I know I said I would stop, but I need to address just one thing you've said about Palestinian women being oppressed by their culture. I find this a very troubling comment. A very, very troubling comment. So troubling I cannot let it stand without comment.

    To quote the women who wrote the article I first wrote my post about, "Representing Arabs as uncivilized and Arab women as the most oppressed women in the world justifies war, murder, and domination." (104)

    To quote one woman, a young Palestinian American, "All of the images I see of myself everywhere tell me that Arab women are subhuman, lower on the evolutionary scale compared to other women in the world [t]his imagery serves to justify Israel's continued violence against Arab people." (104)

    To quote a senior Arab American college student, "Within feminist circles, as soon as people find out that I am Arab, they bring up the issue of Arab women and how badly they are treated. It is very frustrating to me, since I have been maltreated by American and European coworkers! I find myself in a place where I have to defend Arab women and the Arab world and the entire Middle East all the time." (105)

    In the words of another feminist activist, "Racist stereotypes about us force me to deny what I am not - i.e., a terrorist or a victim - before I can even begin to assert what I am - an Arab American. So I find myself constantly defending myself and constantly explaining myself to make people understand that what they think about us isn't true." (105)

    One last quote, from an Arab graduate student and activist, "I was studying in a cafe in Berkeley. A woman sitting next to me asked me what I was reading. I said, 'a book about Arab immigration to the US.' She said, 'Are ou from that part of the world?' I said, 'Yes.' She said, 'You sure are lucky to be here. They treat women really badly over there, dont they?' I said, 'The US has its positive sides, but it also has its negative sides for Arabs who live here.' She said, 'Like what?' I said, 'Like as we speak the US government is funding Israel to murder and maim our children by the thousands.' She said, 'That's not the US fault and you know what I think? I think you should go back home if you don't like it here.'" (105)

    "Confronted with the image of the 'super-oppressed Arab woman,' our research participants explained that they tended to be marginalized, and needed to justify their existences as Arab and Arab American women." (106)

    I would hope these words will be considered in future conceptions of Arab American women.

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  73. Laura, If I am the professor you are referring to-you have misrepresented by passion. Anyone who has heard speak publicly about the matter over the last 5 years in several debates and presentations could verify that have taken strong issue with West Bank settlement policy and other forms of governance that intrude on Palestinian rights. My passion and remarks concerned a point raised by a student who asked whether "questioning Israel's right to exist" amounted to anti-Semitism to which I responded yes . I have often criticized Israel and certainly believe others have the right to do so, but once one raises the possibility of "legitimacy" of Israel it is a step in the direction of attacking Jewish existence given that many of the Jews who reside there have come from locations where their way of life and lives had been threatened (e.g., Syria, Iraq, Ethiopia, Russia etc.). In the heat of a discussion it is possible to misinterpret statements-but this is the full context and that is what i said. Seth

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  74. Laura, either you intentionally are misreading my statement or are confused. As noted, I have respect for Palestinian women. That is not the issue-you are making it sound as if I am responsible for a perspective. There exists a reality in their society that suppresses Arab women success-to deny that is to ignore what is real. I do not worry about anecdotal statement of these women-who are obviously more concerned about making a case against Israel than their own societies-that is natural for them to do so-they have grievances. However, to paint these opinions as facts or to ignore what is really taking place in such societies is at the peril of such women. There are many scholars and observers and feminists (dont take my word read those who have pointed this out). Please investigate Arab women's right in Saudi Arabia and compare their rights to those in Israel, look at Hamas-how many women leaders are there in their govt? Let's get real about this. I haVE MY OWN QUOTE FROM THE MOTHER AND GRANDMOTHER of a Palestinian couple whose engagement we attended in Israel. "we dont like everything Israel does, but if Hamas came in and took over our lives I would drive my car right into the sea." Seth.

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  75. Furthermore, Laura, if you at the history of women's rights in Israel, although no whereas advanced as I would like it, Israel has had a woman prime minister, and the head of the second largest party and candidate for prime minister is a woman, justices are women. Now, if you appreciate how societies within societies work, you should understand that the more rights accorded women in the majority the faster such rights are passed on to others within the society. Hence, Arab women in Israel tend have better rights and more control than in the surrounding countries. However, where fundamentalism is alive and well (such as in the Heradi religious community in Israel) or in the greater society of Gaza, women will have less rights. By ignoring the treatment of such women, if indeed it is women you care about, then you ought to challenge some of the assumptions drawn by those you quote. Indeed, those treatments could be used as rationalizations for other actions-but that does not deny the oppressive state of affairs for such women. When I was in israel over the summer there were at least two cases of "honor killings" by Palestinian males of females. This has little to do with Israeli policy regarding Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank, but if you ignore such events you are complicit in supporting such actions. I argue with fellow supporters of israel about what I view to be oppressive policies, while still supporting Israel. I realize all countries have considerable issues. The question for you is whether you can simultaneously support Palestinian women by supporting a peace process that will liberate them, but also challenge the accepted norms of their societies regarding the dominance of males and oppression of females. Seth

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  76. Ahh the beauty of internet blogging...as soon as someone calls you out on being ignorant you can just go hide in your basement and "remove yourself entirely from this conversation."

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  77. Laura, I'm glad that you've decided to stop posting "for your own emotional well being." Hopefully you will learn from this experience and think twice about publishing uneducated, hateful things on the internet.

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